The primitive path to the first crafting bench

    With the last few updates being geared more towards survival (water, canteens, and fuel requirements) and with primitive tools just around the corner, I'm introducing a new suggestion list for primitive crafting. This is based mostly on my own thought but includes some other ideas I remember others suggested elsewhere. Some I'm repeating just incase Red didn't see or maybe to persuade him further to re-consider (seeing that the game development is partially community inspired).


    Naturally spawning objects

    • So if anyone is not aware, naturally occurring sticks and stones are already confirmed to be coming
    • natural sticks should spawn or re-spawn randomly on the ground in proximity of trees but only after sleeping -- similar to The Forest
    • natural stones same general behavior as above but probably spawn near cave entrances, inside caves, and near water bodies
    • A river rock variation of the above might be more suitable for crafting weapons
    • Animal bones (individual bones found scattered or salvaged of a carcass)

    Other crafting mechanic changes

    • add alternative ingredients for a crafting recipe (see primitive campfire section below for example)
    • Either barehanded or having a tool equipped (either the active hotbar slot or being barehanded if implemented) affects some recipes (like RUST)
    • Remove/Replace the "drop" command (key_Q) and change it to unequip (go barehanded).
    • Pulling grass is only done by hand so press Q or select a slot with no item (same behavior as ARK)
    • Pulling grass is useful for clearing very small patches of glass around stuff like furnaces when placed on grass since now possibly finding the side door is an issue in tall grass
    • Pulling grass by hand removes very very small about of grass (1/10th the area of a sickle swipe) . First pull makes the grass it half-height, second pull removed long grass, third pull turns the ground from grass to dirt (obviously this is going to be a very tedious process but useful for minor land changes and gathering plant fibers)

    Tool Stone

    • I'm bringing this up again even though I don't think Red51 is keen with the idea yet.
    • River rocks or possibly rocks found in caves can be crafted into a handheld "cutting tool"
    • Two rocks = 1 cutting tool
    • Cutting tools may also be occasionally found inside caves left over by past civilizations (pretty sure Red confirmed possibly finding old artifacts embedded in stone or in old clay jars (like Terraria?). some items scattered in caves might be good too)
    • A river rock + 1 cutting tool = 1 punch tool (cutting tool destroyed in the process)
    • Punch tool + natural stick + plant fibers = primitive axe
    • cutting tool + natural stick + plant fibers = primitive pickaxe


    Animal decomposition and salvaging

    • Animals that we don't "hide" after killing will decompose in a few different stages (each stage advances with the passing of each day)
    • 1st stage of decomposition spoils any meat left but can still salvage organs or hide for crafting recipes
    • 2nd stage of decomposition only bones are remained.
    • dead animals (not the ones we kill) will naturally respawn only after sleeping (because bear attacks happen in the wild)
    • Each passing day (regardless of our decision to sleep) will decompose a dead animal further. So eventually we will have only animal bones here and there to pick from
    • The tool we are holding (club, axe, pickaxe, or knife/shiv) determine what inventory shows in the carcass and its quality and quantity. So if you arent happy with the inventory (meat, bones, entrails, hide) close the animal's inventory window and hold a different weapon and open it again (since I doubt we will be harvesting by hacking the inamial since the inventory window is already established for animals)

    Primitive camp fire

    • Modify ingredient requirements and implement alternative crafting ingredients (useful for primitive crafting only)
    • One log can be substituted for several natural sticks
    • loose river rocks or cave rocks can substitute stone (currently mined)


    Primitive knife

    • a large animal bone can be collected off of dead animals at any stage of decomposition
    • crafting a camp fire and cooking pot is required (should be anyways for boiling water)
    • A bone with marrow is dropped into boiling water to remove marrow and become a hollow bone
    • If you happen to get a hollow bone from a carcass (possibly after further decomposition) then you can skip the cooking pot step
    • bone is crafted into a shiv assuming you have a cutting tool


    Starting out

    • When we start out bare handed, the only craftable items should be a primitive pickaxe and axe (or the cutting tool if Red51 gets onboard)
    • Same rule above applies with making sticks
    • An axe or pickaxe or cutting tool must be equipped in order to craft a torch holder
    • An axe must be held in order to craft lumber
    • A torch can still be crafted from a natural stick (perhaps a new model could be added. The natural stick torch can fit in any torch holder)
    • Holding an axe or other tool is required for crafting new items on the workbench
    • As an alternative to the last thought, equip a workbench with tool slots. That way, tools can be stored on the workbench so you don't have to be dependant on the tool you are currently holding.
    • Any crafting causes a tool to wear (either the one held or the ones stored on the workbench)


    Hello,
    I like this concept a lot !

    Two questions.


    1) Simple, by "after sleeping", you mean that the character actually has to sleep for sticks/stones to regenerate and carcasses to decompose (or whatever it was) or that a day/night cycle has to complete? The first does not make much sense to me as I do not understand how the behaviour of the character when he's doing something else may affect the 'spontaneous' natural processes.


    2a) More complex. Let's assume we start bare handed. To make a pickaxe, we need an anvil (and some extra iron for the pickaxe head); to make the anvil, we need iron; to have iron we need a furnace and iron ore; to make the furnace we need stone (quite a lot of it). How are we going to collect the needed stone and iron ore without a pickaxe?


    2b) Let's assume the above is solved by some trick (the kind of things I like to call "magic in disguise"). Before we can have a pickaxe or a sword or any effective tool, we need to collect at least 128 stones (at least easy to find), make a furnace, collect 32+n iron ores (less easy to find); smelt it; make the anvil; make the tool. This may easily take several days of game time and a few hours of play time. Which is fine in itself (the first few times)! But:
    - in the meantime we will be expected to be harassed by bears, lions, bandits, and so on, without any effective attack/defence tool yet.
    - how many times this can be repeated (new world, new server) before becoming utterly boring?


    Many ideas and details are great, suggestive, appealing, ... in themselves, but the whole of the game play should always be taken into account.

    Hi Miwware,
    For 1a my idea was only a suggestion for the technical issue of how to hide that transitional moment in game when objects in the field respawn or change. For example, if you stare at a tree in game for hours, at some point that tree has to be redrawn as it matures. There are only 2 or 3 states modeled for trees in Rising World. I dont know how this is currently addressed. Maybe the tree redraws the next time its in your visible range. I havent kept a game open 5 hours or so just to see how its handled.


    For 2a. I was referring to primitive tools made of stone, not the iron tools we currently start with. Red is already planning to drop the iron tools from inventory once primitve tools can be crafted. I am simply trying to figure out a good recipe system and other ideas to get us to a crafting table. Once we are able to craft a workbench then we can use the currently implemented approach to making an anvil and then making the components for iron tools.


    And in 2b, as I said, we will have primitive stone tools that we can use for mining more stone to make the furnace. The stone tools will surely have less effectiveness and durability as iron.

    Hi Jon,


    Red did mention some other furnaces in the works. There would be a more primitive furnace as well as a small furnace. Id imagine those require less stone. My ideas are mainly to get from barehanded to around the point we currently start out where essentially we chop some trees down and make a workbench. So for the scope of my original post, metallurgy doesnt even come into play.

    Quote from zfoxfire

    Hi Miwware,
    For 1a my idea was only a suggestion for the technical issue of how to hide that transitional moment in game when objects in the field respawn or change. For example, if you stare at a tree in game for hours, at some point that tree has to be redrawn as it matures. There are only 2 or 3 states modeled for trees in Rising World. I dont know how this is currently addressed. Maybe the tree redraws the next time its in your visible range. I havent kept a game open 5 hours or so just to see how its handled.


    For 2a. I was referring to primitive tools made of stone, not the iron tools we currently start with. Red is already planning to drop the iron tools from inventory once primitve tools can be crafted. I am simply trying to figure out a good recipe system and other ideas to get us to a crafting table. Once we are able to craft a workbench then we can use the currently implemented approach to making an anvil and then making the components for iron tools.


    And in 2b, as I said, we will have primitive stone tools that we can use for mining more stone to make the furnace. The stone tools will surely have less effectiveness and durability as iron.



    at least there isn't any wooden pickaxes like in minecraft

    Quote from zfoxfire

    Hi Jon,


    Red did mention some other furnaces in the works. There would be a more primitive furnace as well as a small furnace. Id imagine those require less stone. My ideas are mainly to get from barehanded to around the point we currently start out where essentially we chop some trees down and make a workbench. So for the scope of my original post, metallurgy doesnt even come into play.


    :thumbup:

    I think for primitive implements, we will definitely need some kind of rope or twine early on. I know hemp was mentioned earlier, but vines and gut can also be used. This will be useful in lashing, building traps, securing safe routes in steep terrain, mountains and ravines.


    I really am not a fan of your description of seeing what we can salvaged from an animal carcass. It would be very unwieldy and annoying to have it use multiple tools just to see what's there. (If I understood this correctly.)


    jmho

    Yes, hemp is coming. We need plant binding material. Hemp is a great source but other sources should work too in a pinch. That why I thought grass could be used to bind. Granted maybe not as well for tools but ok for thatch huts.


    My thoughts behind the holding of a tool is because we already have an inventory screen so I figured we wouldn't be using a hunting knife to to actually cut the animal up after we kill it. If we are out hunting then we are going to have to use the knife regardless In games like ARK, the tool you use determines how much have meat and hide can be collected. So do we simply open the inventory screen or do we actually hack away at the carcass?


    What I am suggesting is that we go that route but without the actual act of using the tool. In ark you attack the animal after killing to extract meat.


    Maybe the whole inventory screen for an animal is a bad approach. Perhaps Red intended that as a placeholder.

    Quote from zfoxfire

    Hi Miwware,
    For 1a my idea was only a suggestion for the technical issue of how to hide that transitional moment in game when objects in the field respawn or change. For example, if you stare at a tree in game for hours, at some point that tree has to be redrawn as it matures. There are only 2 or 3 states modeled for trees in Rising World. I dont know how this is currently addressed. Maybe the tree redraws the next time its in your visible range. I havent kept a game open 5 hours or so just to see how its handled.


    If I remember correctly, I got -- by pure chance -- the moment a plant (I think it was a tomato plant, but likely it applies to all plants/trees) changed of shape. Much like the ores in the furnace change instantaneously from ores to ingots. It isn't particularly realistic, but to my feeling it is quite acceptable as a decent approximation of a continuous process in a game.


    So, if I would see a stick or a piece of stone popping up on the ground in front of me, I would not be particularly disturbed; I do not expect this to happen often, as the spawn rate would be relatively low and you would be mostly looking elsewhere.


    Quote

    For 2a. I was referring to primitive tools made of stone, not the iron tools [...] Once we are able to craft a workbench then we can use the currently implemented approach to making an anvil and then making the components for iron tools.


    And in 2b, as I said, we will have primitive stone tools that we can use for mining more stone to make the furnace. The stone tools will surely have less effectiveness and durability as iron.


    I don't think it possible to effectively cut generic stone with generic stone tools. You may possibly crumble it -- also destroying the tools in the process --, but not cutting in a usable form. In the 'real history', things were different, as the work time available was much greater, as much more 'players' were available. So, complex methods using stones (lots of them!) to start to fracture specific kinds of stones, like schists, and then wood sticks and poles as levers; which would be overly complex and making little sense in a game like RW.


    Also, a link is missing in this chain: brick. In many ancient (say, Bronze Age) civilizations knowing some kind of metallurgy, furnaces were not make of stone, but of bricks. And bricks can be made (almost) bare-handed.


    I think an actual crafting tree should be written down, and check it can actually be traversed without containing too many too obvious inconsistencies.


    But one question still remains: how many times are you willing to repeat that same craft path from scratch? How does this affect game longevity?

    Maybe the inventory screen would say, for instance, meat, bone, hide, and gut. After "bone" it might say, "requires axe." Maybe the meat amount is not specified, but will always yield more with a knife than a sharp stone. This would be something we would learn.


    Maybe we're saying the same thing here. I just wouldn't want to see a different inventory screen depending on what tool I was holding in my hand.

    Well, if you die and didnt create a cache of spare tools then i guess you would have to start over. Thats a result of poor planning.


    But yes, a crafting tree is needed. I wanted to do something like that in the last post you made on transversing the ages. The focus of this thread was just on primitive tools. This assumes you know how to make anything from a stone axe to a steam train. The other thread seemed more about starting with zero knowledge of tools and also on developing culturally.


    Regarding the creation of cutting tools, in the real world you would spend hours of hand grinding stone on stone to create a shape. I'm not suggesting we sit in game for an hour to make one stone. That sounds like something you would see in Wurm which actually requires multiple players and to compensate for the diversity of crafting skills, long crafting times, and the detail of comstruction down to the individual nails. I want so see something not as tedious but fairly complex so we should reduce the time and focus on the crafting recipes. We shape stones to make a crude tool which can then be attached to a stick for added leverage. In grinding stone on stone, one stone is likely to be destroyed so it might take several stones to make one axe head.


    I do like the idea of making bricks with our bare hands. Clay pots would also be nice to have.


    I am curious of what your ideas are regarding how we should implement primitive crafting.

    Quote from zfoxfire

    Well, if you die and didnt create a cache of spare tools then i guess you would have to start over. Thats a result of poor planning.


    Agreed! If someone dies while carrying all his tools, ores, stones, furnaces, and so on, he has to start over and fully deserves it!


    But: you start a new world: you start from scratch, great! You join a server: you have to start from scratch, fine. You create a new world to try different settings: you have to start from scratch, well... You join another server: you have to start from scratch: oh no, again?


    Quote

    Regarding the creation of cutting tools, in the real world you would spend hours of hand grinding stone on stone to create a shape. I'm not suggesting we sit in game for an hour to make one stone. [...] I want so see something not as tedious but fairly complex so we should reduce the time and focus on the crafting recipes.


    Agreed! Except for the fact that the majority of archaeological findings do not show generic stone tools ground one another, but specific kinds of stone (those with more defined 'cutting planes'; sorry I lack the English terminology on this) accurately chipped in order to create a cutting edge. Anyway, the details are secondary and may be lumped in the "this is a game, after all" category.


    Quote

    I am curious of what your ideas are regarding how we should implement primitive crafting.


    In a sense, me too! Basically, my feeling is that we should not. Not before Bronze Age; stretching somehow, not before late Neolithic. Before that, the mechanics (social, temporal, technical) would be so different from what can be reasonably implemented in a single-player (or limited-multi-player) game, that the result would be largely pure fantasy.


    Quote

    I do like the idea of making bricks with our bare hands. Clay pots would also be nice to have.


    Clay and bronze were important in bridging from stone to iron; it would be hard to do without.

    Ok, so i think that the character data is part of the world data with the current implementation . If that changes where the character is seperate then perhaps the character stats and inventory can transfer between worlds or uploaded to a server.


    In multiplayer you would be at the mercy of the admins as to whether your character can be uploaded. If we have tribes on a server then you can join a tribe and inherit their skill set of that tribe (based on the previous suggestion I made in your thread about ages and civilizations). Another option is that by picking up a dropped tool by another player or if you find an old tool in a cave, you can pick that up and begin at whatever branch in the crafting tree that tool can be made with. This also keeps with the theme that a player remembers how to make things even after death.


    I guess that at present, keeing our characters is not an issue. We start out with iron tools and we can craft a workbench after chopping down a few trees. We have no skill set or character attributes at this time to worry about. Perhaps then depending of how far Red intends to go with character development will determine if he extracts the character info from the world.


    So you would rather not explore the stone age from what you said there. I guess thats fine for some players. I personally and many others sound excited to have primitive crafting. Perhaps you just want to be able to quickly craft a stone axe in the event you lose the iron one. Perhaps your idea of primitive tools are a temporary substitution rather than a starting point.

    Primitive Crafting Tree as I would implement it.
    Tools / Weapons
    Rock = Ranged weapon
    Rock + Flint = Stone Knife/ Ax head/ Spear Head (all in how you chip it)
    Rock + Rock = Stone Hammer Head (can be used in the same fashion as the sledge but gives ore / Rocks )
    Stick + Stone ---- Head + Twine (Fibers) = Ax / Spear / Hammer


    Hand Gathered Resources
    Mud is dug by hand and can be shaped into
    Bricks (Takes one full day cycle to dry)
    Kilns (Small Smelter 2 ore and used for curing bricks faster)
    Pottery (Bowls and cooking rocks kiln cured or sun dried)


    Grass is pulled by hand at the root in the smallest area allowed used for
    Grass weaves = baskets / hats / Thatch and more
    Twine fibers


    Gravel is gathered by hand and used for
    Not sure at the primitive stages?


    Rocks spawn around stone out crops larger then 12 blocks on the surface and in Mud when its dug out
    Rock + Log = Small fire
    (See above)


    Flint found in gravel when dug by hand used for
    (See Above)


    Animal Parts
    Guts = water skins, sinews,
    Bones = used as a stronger version of wood or to drink from the enemies skulls (depends on how barbaric we want to be) maybe a nice club
    Hide = loin clothes and fur bikinis
    Completely Agree with @zfoxfire on the decomposing not much to add here


    Some incomplete thoughts on the matter


    Starting out I think the idea of having a necessary tool equipped to craft certain items is a bit much but requiring you to have it in your inventory or on the bench is a good idea.


    Personally I wouldn't mind an animation of us stringing up a carcass and draining it while we pull out its bits and....... you get the idea. At the same time I've watched animals be cleaned after a hunt and that is not everyone's cup of tea and best left to modders.


    A complete crafting tree should be created but there are my thoughts on it.

    Hi Modern,


    Sounds like we are on the same page for the most part. I do like the idea of fur clothing. What exactly are sinews used for in crafting?


    Red said he wantedd to make it possible to dig up things in rock, I guess in gravel and dirt too. I like the idea of digging up flint in the gravel. I wonder if the current system of terrain modification would allow us to dig a very small area out of the ground by hand.


    And yes, the animal hanging might be a bit too much for most players. That seems like something you'd see in a more hardcore survival game.

    Sinews are useful in crafting bows, tendons give you a better bounce back then a simple string of plant fiber. Boiling the sinews would give you bow string as well as lute strings. In primitive crafting I doubt we should have access to the old "Cats Gut" method of making things but boiled tendons would be possible this also leaves behind a paste like substance that can be used as glue or as the main ingredient in Jello. (I may be off on the details)


    Does look like we share many of the same thoughts on the matter yes. Guessing you may know a few survivalist hunter types as well.


    From what I have noticed it should be possible to dig up the standard spike piece of terrain you get if you place dirt in the air but maybe the way Red does the meshing allows a set area depending on where you dig.


    An animal cleaning craft station? To show how much work it is with out showing the grisly details maybe. I am some what immunized to the sight but the first time I saw it at five it may of left a few scars on the psych. Wouldn't want my kiddo to see it but then again he plays Skyrim.

    The survivalist lifestyle seems to appeal to me but I am not prepared to live if SHTF. Still its a fantasy life of mine. Maybe thats why I like survival/crafting so much.


    I didnt know about boiling parts to make glue. I honestly dont expect Rising World to get too hardcore survivalist but I do hope that Rising World will maintain its spirit of realism when we get into primitive crafting.


    I dont know what Red really plans for animal processing but I could apppreciate a drying rack at minimum and a leather tanning station.

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