The the rapidly increasing disparity of presentation with this game as a server host

angriff · May 9th 2018

Unless you are a programmer it is rapidly appearing to me that it might not be worthwhile having/paying for a dedicated server. If you do not have the knowledge to program java you will not be able to compete as function are being put in other servers with plug-ins. The Main game does not seem to be good for much more than building nice things like a Diorama.

That is something I enjoy actually, but adding things to keep players interested short of permission rights is a frustrating deal. The upgrading by server operator that can program is kind of neat but leads to a disparity and almost hampering of other server operators ability to compete by hosting the game without all the new plugin features, foreign language error messages or worse half functioning features where players get frustrated that they work on one server and suddenly can't do the same on a new server they would like to try.

I am totally frustrated spending three days trying to troubleshoot plugins that don't function,give me errors in foreign languages or interfere with other features and without being a programmer or the original code you can't fix it. They combined language building of this game is a major hampering feature. If the developer's receive no income from dedicated servers than it is meaningless for them to reign in the huge disparity in game experience from server to server.

It would be one thing if it was just building nice places for people to see while providing for other to show their talent. However, the plug-in world has made the game an Open Development Platform that can vary the type of experience in game immensely. If the plug-ins are not available in the basic game then this game is headed for the likes of Cliffs of Dover Il-2 Sturmovik style server abandonments by players. Only a few groups of programming type players will continue the game advancement and an ever smaller player base will enjoy the reality of a confusing and difficult game.

I am not about to give up just yet but Jeez Louise

Minotorious · May 9th 2018

Well that is the same with minecraft though or any other moddable game, if you can code it yourself you can fit it to your standards and customise it else you have to use the publicly available ones which could have errors and problems in them, errors that you cannot fix yourself, or missing documentation for their functions etc.

This will get better with time if more people and more modders get into RW and start making good mods publicly available. The fact that modding is done currently via Java plugins is a bit of a problem since Java is a proper and difficult programming language and many modders are used to Lua which is simple and easy to use and thus get discouraged when they see Java here. On the other hand Java is extremely more powerful and has a lot of tools Lua does not.

angriff · May 9th 2018

Well all you are telling me is learn java or just make pretty things. The possibility of a game that is anyway capable more than that is wishful thinking. I guess I am good with that..

Anyway I played minecraft only before the author sold it to the big company.. I am not sure how it works now but it was cool that the mechanics let you program it using in game things and not coding.

ffflo1993 · May 10th 2018

But you know Minecraft without Bukkit (Bukkit is made by the community, not the developers) is extremely barebone for server admins? Even you cannot setup basic things there. Without mods and things like Bukkit Minecraft is a total mess for admins. At least Rising world has settings like permissions.

Like Mino says if the game is getting popular, more people work on mods and plugins and release it for the publicity.

angriff · May 10th 2018

they just need to lock this thread so it goes away.. the plug in thing only makes the game appear to be broken for whatever reason it does not work modding a game not yet released or stable.. They are already not going to support Lua scripts they said.

Minotorious · May 10th 2018

Quote from angriff

it does not work modding a game not yet released or stable.

I will not agree here, it does work and it has been done many times before, e.g. Conan Exiles had modding since day 1 in early access and that resulted in many mods actually making their way in the final game or inspiring the developers to add new features not previously considered.

Lua will not be supported that is a fact and a final decision by red51, having said that Java is much more powerful and deep as a language. If I am not mistaken minecraft also has a Java and not a Lua API (community made but still there)

angriff · May 10th 2018

Quote from Minotorious

I will not agree here, it does work and it has been done many times before, e.g. Conan Exiles had modding since day 1 in early access and that resulted in many mods actually making their way in the final game or inspiring the developers to add new features not previously considered.
Lua will not be supported that is a fact and a final decision by red51, having said that Java is much more powerful and deep as a language. If I am not mistaken minecraft also has a Java and not a Lua API (community made but still there)

So the idea is to mimic Minecraft?

Minotorious · May 10th 2018

I don't know to be honest I will leave it to @red51 to give an answer to that

red51 · May 10th 2018

I understand that the Plugin API is not everyones cup of tea. In fact at least some programming knowledge is required to use it, and a programming language like Java is usually always considered as "more complicated" than a scripting language like Lua. However, it's not intended that basically "everyone" has to use it to tweak his server or game, instead it's meant to encourage programmers/modders to write plugins for the game and make them available to the public. From this point of view it's actually much easier for modders to use the Plugin API instead of the old Lua API, especially since the new API has a proper documentation (which enables - when used in an IDE - handy features like code completion etc). In the long run, I'm confident that there will be more people using the Plugin API. I'm sure we will see some very interesting plugins in the future, especially when the API becomes more powerful (e.g. once it allows custom items, recipes etc).

Another huge advantage of using Java instead of Lua is the much better performance. Lua does not support multi-threading, but the RW server highly depends on that. And since there is no native Lua support for Java, using Lua creates a lot of overhead, since everything needs to be converted into "Lua values" (while the "Java values" and objects can be passed directly to the Plugin API without having to convert or wrap them).
Our old AreaProtection script exposed some of these performance limitations: if a server has a lot of areas, it struggles handling more than 10-20 players...

And since the API uses Java, it's easier for us to expand it. It already offers some nice features (custom images, models and sounds) which are not available in the old Lua API.

In general, having an API (no matter if it uses Java or Lua) is always favorable in terms of modding. When a new update for the game comes out, old plugins usually stay compatible. There are only very few cases which require plugin creators to update their plugins (e.g. if there were some extensive changes made to the core game). If there was no API in place, nearly every update would break existing mods. In addition, installing a plugin is easier than installing mods (unless there are tools like mod managers available).
And, above all: when playing multiplayer, players don't have to install any plugins on their machine. They simply can join the server without having to download or install anything manually, the game takes care of everything automatically. So server admins can simply add or remove plugins (or make any changes to them) without forcing the players to download anything or change any settings on their end.

Basically we try to offer the most important features "out of the box", without having the user/admin to install any additional plugins or scripts. That's why the "server.properties" grants access to several settings and there are various important features availble, like permissions or custom journals. The only "critical" feature that's missing is some sort of world protection (although solely the permissions provide some rudimentary world protection). Originally we decided to rely on the API for that feature, that's why we released the AreaProtection script in the past. Having a plugin or a script allows full customization, while there is little to no room for that if it's a core feature in the game. Unfortunately there is still no AreaProtection plugin available, and that's a pity. @Miwarre created a very promising AP plugin which was nearly ready, but he hasn't been online for over a year (I really hope he's well). Unfortunately there we had no time to create our own AP plugin yet...

Which particular plugins do you use exactly? Afaik most plugins available in the forum work pretty well, so maybe something went wrong with install it? But of course there are no guarantees that a certain plugin works properly, people create plugins on a voluntary basis, and since our community is still relatively small, there are not many plugins creators out there.
If a plugin outputs an error in a foreign language, it's probably because the plugin creator set up this error message. And of course there is always a change that a plugin contains errors, or that it triggers a bug in the game. The API is still far from being complete, but we're working on it

icon58 · May 10th 2018

If I may put in my two cents?
I have my own server for my own enjoyment. I have seen servers come and I have seen servers go.
Servers take a lot of time work but for me its a lot of fun also.
One thing I really like about this game is the community.
I can download and use an addon, a script and ask the author if I have any problems, and they will answer me.
I have had some come on to the server to see what the problem was and tell me how to fix it.
And all this FOR FREE!!! WOOT.

Myself I like the API better because it does not cause as much trouble as the LUA.
Yes you have to know how to program but that is good because while you are making the addon and testing it it pretty much has to run over you figure it out and start over again.
LUA you can set it for one setup? If it likes it good if not well....
I have pulled my hair out with LUA because "if not and then" let them eat cake.

To me this game is far from MC I played MC for several years and now I have over umm 1700 hours in RW.
The game play is different, the tempo is different, the people who come on and play are different.
The underlying game play itself the mechanics? There is only so much a Dev can do but so far Red has done a GREAT job on keeping RW its own game...
Okay maybe three cents

angriff · May 10th 2018

Well I certainly hope there is a consistent capability in game basic ability to provide gameplay that people can enjoy persistent true-to-type gameplay across all server Admin types would be my vote. Being able to limit theme, advancement or character building, violence level, amount of resources, trading and crafting skill character building is all part of that consistent gameplay.
I already have players telling me, "oh on this server they use this for money or they have this routine.. what do you plan here?" I am not the developer for the game. Even if I do put in a proprietary plugin that provides some basic variation in gameplay, I dont have the ability to advertise it as different to new players buying on Steam. Then, what if the developers decide they want to go another direction or adds a capability that obsoletes it? This basically leaves me at a disadvantage for running a server at my expense for player enjoyment.

Yet, I personally do not find any enjoyment in the game on a single player game building even one little house. I know many do and advertise their accomplishments on the forums. I know when you look at the game in the Steam Store is looks like a single player building game and the environmental and gameplay changes of individual servers is not known other than PVP. All Server Admins can turn on PVP as a ubiquitous gameplay feature for players! Players can see the capability in the server select screen.

From a server Admin point of view, I can put in plug-ins like ABM or Iconomy then spend half my time troubleshooting it or getting players to help me test it then find the players don't enjoy that at all and stop interacting with it after the first 20 animals they "capture and name". It is beyond this the gameplay lies that gets players to buy the game and play. It is the developer's vision that players will eventually want to play and finding that unique niche game mod that makes them happy is something of a hit or miss in joining a server.

I can put in Teleport features point mods and invisible TP points that provide, to me, fun interactions with places that send players to a new area without their prior knowledge. I can create a puzzle with these routines for them to solve (not unlike the game Portals). They may enjoy it as much as I do making it or they may never find it in the huge map and it remains my secret joy. But if it ever stops working or there is a change the routine may become unsupportable and deflate the enjoyment for both the player and myself. So what would be the point of developing my own game that is not guaranteed to be safely along the lines that the developers envision?

Tweaking small capabilities of the gameplay, building glorious dioramas for players to interact, allowing players to do their thing in the place of their choice is all part of my enjoyment in running a free to play server for them. The chores of backup, clean up, protecting the game play environment as well as providing an enhanced environment for them to interact is part of the Server owner/ Admin job enjoyment. I don't necessarily wish to compete for players that want a totally different game than I do. I just want an even chance in the gameplay capabilities of this game to provide a basic homogenous and playable game for like minded players, once released.

I posted this discussion out of the general discussion area as it is actually about server owners only. You can move it or lock it now. I just thought it was relevant to servers only and there was no need to involve or distress others with a specific interest in server ownership.

I appreciate and support the game development and success.

Participate now!